>>> Larry Goldberg: Hello, everybody. Larry Goldberg here. Welcome back after that short break. The first two talks before the break were really great. Really quite amazing content. And as Jennison said, we could have gone on for quite a lot longer. We will be in all of our various venues post symposium. We're hoping that the next two will be equally engaging. Our next session is advocacy in emerging technology with Erin. Erin has been part of XR Access since even before last year's symposium and has led the content working group until recently. Erin is a digital content producer and consultant with a focus on accessibility and disability representation in media. She has worked with companies like Microsoft, Logitech and Adobe to make sure accessibility is not an afterthought. Erin is also part of XR access. And we really have benefitted quite a bit from her contributions already. The work has been featured in "The New York Times," "USA Today" and other platforms. She lives in Keyport, New Jersey. And you can find her. She also is quite active in twitter. Good morning, good afternoon, actually now, Erin. You've been involved with emerging technology accessibility really beginning in the gaming world, which really has taught us a lot in our field. Can you tell us about the beginning of your journey there? 

>> Erin Hawley: sure. So, I started gaming from a very young age. And my first system was 2600. And also, you know, PlayStation, Nintendo. And technology and gaming advanced, disability -- I was having trouble accessing games. Because, like, especially with controllers that were complex. I started thinking about having to make gaming accessible and started in 2013. And it kind of really took off. On twitter that's how I met people at Microsoft and got involved in the Xbox adaptive controller. 

>> Larry: we have learned so much from the gaming world, friends at able gamers and so many other places. And then of course Microsoft launch of that adaptive controller, which is really pretty awesome. But an interesting question that we've talked about, what it's like to advocate for accessibility when you can't access the tools and content of the environment you're working in. What's that been like? 

>> Erin: Right. So, it's actually in VR I can't use a VR headset as they are. And I can't really access, you know, motion controls and all of that. So, how I got involved with VR access is I saw a video online about how VR is finally used now. I was like -- access it. But it's not good for me. So, I did some research and I came across XR access in my search. And I got involved because I wanted to make sure that people with disabilities were involved, you know, in the game. Rather than having it as an afterthought. And so I learned so much from the people here at XR access. I didn't know what was available. I didn't know the research done for accessibility. You know, it's difficult. But I think it's important to do what I am doing, which is advocating for accessibility. 

>> Larry: Well, as you learned as soon as you started asking questions, we immediately drafted you to be a leader. And that's how it works. And the learnings that you had and the rest of us had is because we're all sharing in this community. So we do appreciate how you've been involved so far. But you've recently taken on a new job. Can you tell us about that? 

>> Erin: Sure. I'm working with the CEO. Social media and PR and making sure -- and I just started July 1st. So, there's a lot of work. I really love it. And I feel like it is definitely changed an organization for the better. 

>> Larry: That's great. Congratulations. And hopefully you'll still have some spare time for XR Access. But we do know that you've got a day job now. But your contributions have always been great. One thing you've talked about a lot is playtesting with users' disabilities. And I'd love for you to talk about that and not only just users, but how did it involve people with the creation in content and platforms? 

>> Erin: I think it's definitely in here to include accessibility before you even start playtesting. And get feedback from people with disabilities. It's easier than doing it after the fact. 

>> Larry: It took them like six years I think in development. But this is a major leap forward. I think we're learning an awful lot from the gaming world in how to really enhance the entire VR/XR experience. I know you've been involved in a lot of VR and XR conferences. I'm wondering how accessible have they been, and that includes us. And I'm wondering what they and we can do better. 

>> Erin: I do think that this symposium is, it's generally accessible. It has an ASL, we have captions. So for me it's very accessible. It's easy to attend. Other conventions have even -- no captions, no ASL. So I think that ordinary organizers have to consider those things before. And I do hope that, you know, after the pandemic, god willing, that we continue online symposiums and online conventions. That means more people can access it. So I think that's definitely important to consider. 

>> Larry: well, we're trying awfully hard to make this fully accessible. And I'm sure we're going to have some glitches too, especially in this afternoon's Mozilla Hubs experiment. We're really going to be pushing the envelope there. But we're going to learn a lot from that experience too. So right now I'd like to see if Jessie has got any questions coming in from our slack channel. 

>> Moderator: Yeah. Just came in from Tom on Slack. For those of us new to the accessibility space without disabilities, what tips or words of advice do you have for us? 

>> Erin: That is a great question. Hire people with disabilities to work with you. Don't ask for help without offering to pay. Because our knowledge is rich and it's definitely something that needs to be done. But it needs to be done fairly as well. We are willing to help. We're out there. Just find us online. 

>> Larry: Anything else, Jessie, coming in from the Slack? 

>> Moderator: We've got this few people typing so I'm going to wait for those to come in. 

>> Larry: All right. I will emphasize and re-emphasize what Erin said for any developers who haven't been involved with the disability community or accessibility, yeah, this is important and valuable monetarily. And so when we do ask for help, and we always practice this in my company, is to make sure users accomplish it as well. 

>> Moderator: So we have another question on Slack from Ryan. What are the most accessible games out there on the market and what are your favorites? 

>> Erin: Most accessible. -- is really accessible. Although PlayStation itself is not very accessible. But Xbox has controllers. PlayStation, as far as I know, does not have anything like that. -- is accessible. All the buttons, they have captions. 

>> Larry: Any more questions, Jessie? 

>> Moderator: Not at this time. Oh, one new question. Research for platforms that do a good job with curating an inclusive user? 

>> Erin: With disabilities that are doing playtesting. -- to reach out to for that. 

>> Larry: And I'll add to that that we recently began working with a company called fable at fabletech.com. And they offer user testing services to companies on apps, on websites, on various technologies, all compensate, all paid for. And all of their users have disabilities and use assistive technology on platforms. So a little shout-out to them. If there aren't any other questions, I really have to thank you, Erin. Congratulations again on the new job. And you know there's no escaping XR access so we're going to be absolutely back in touch, perhaps even more than you prefer. But you can always shut us down as needed. 

>> Erin: Thank you.