>> BILL CURTIS-DAVIDSON: THANK YOU. OKAY. SO, AS A REMINDER, POST YOUR QUESTIONS FOR THIS AND OTHER PLENARY TALKS ON THE SLACK CHANNEL. NEXT UP I'D LIKE TO INTRODUCE JENNISON ASUNCION WHO WILL BE INTERVIEWING MATT MAY, HEAD OF INCLUSIVE DESIGN AT ADOBE. AND JENNISON IS AT LINKEDIN AND ALSO GLOBAL ACCESSIBILITY AWARENESS DAY OR GAAD, AS WE KNOW IT. WELCOME JENNISON AND MATT. >> JENNISON ASUNCION: HEY, GOOD MORNING. HAPPY MONDAY, EVERYONE. I'M REALLY THRILLED TO BE ABLE TO HAVE A CHAT WITH ONE OF MY FAVORITE PEOPLE WHO WORK IN OUR FIELD OF ACCESSIBILITY, MATT MAY. SO GOOD MORNING, MATT. I THINK I FIRST MET YOU, WE FIRST STARTED WORKING TOGETHER I THINK BACK IN 2010. WE PATIENTLY TOOK OUR QUESTIONS AS WE WORKED TO IMPLEMENTING THAT. IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME. HOPE YOU'RE DOING GOOD. YOU SPENT 13 YEARS AT ADOBE. OF COURSE, YOU AND OUR PAL WENDY BACK IN 2008 WROTE THE BOOK "UNIVERSAL DESIGN OF WEB APPLICATIONS." BUT LET'S GO BACK TO 2002 ACCORDING TO LINKEDIN WHEN YOU STARTED -- WHAT BROUGHT YOU INTO THIS WHOLE ACCESSIBILITY WORLD? >> MATT MAY: HEY. YEAH, GOOD MORNING. GOOD TO SEE YOU. I'M JUST GOING TO TALK. IT'S JUST NOT COMING OUT. SO, LET ME -- I'LL DO THAT. YOU CAN ASK THE NEXT QUESTION AND I'LL SEE IF I CAN REPAIR THE PROBLEMS. LET'S SEE. I THINK I MIGHT'VE GOT IT. HOLD ON. TA-DA. OKAY. >> JENNISON: I CAN HEAR YOU. >> MATT: 2002 IS WHEN I STARTED. BUT BEFORE THAT I HAD BEEN WORKING ON AN ONLINE GROCERY WEBSITE. WE TALKED ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK. WE HAD USERS THAT SAID IT'S GREAT MAKING PEOPLE'S LIVES EASIER TO BUY GROCERIES. BUT I'M BLIND AND THIS IS WHAT MY USER EXPERIENCE IS LIKE. LIKE, JUST GOING TO THE GROCERY STORE. AND SO BY DOING THESE THINGS, YOU CAN MAKE THEM ACCESSIBLE. THAT'S SORT OF HOW I GOT INTO IT. SO I JOINED THE CONTENT ACCESSIBILITY GUIDELINES IN LIKE 2000 OR SO. THEY HAD JUST FINISHED THE 1.0 STANDARD AND WERE JUST BEGINNING TO WORK ON 2.0. SO, YEAH, THAT REALLY TOOK OFF. THAT WAS A GOOD STARTING POINT FOR, YOU KNOW, JUST THINKING ABOUT IT FROM AN IMPLEMENTER'S PERSPECTIVE ON THIS. BECAUSE WENDY CAME FROM ACADEMIA. WE HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WERE WORKING FOR, LIKE, BIGGER COMPANIES, AND THAT WAS JUST LIKE A LITTLE e-COMMERCE OUTFIT. FROM THERE, I ENDED UP WORKING, YEAH, IN W3C. AND IT KIND OF TOOK OFF FROM THERE. >>JENNISON: AND YOU'VE BEEN AT ADOBE NOW FOR 13 YEARS. [ LAUGHTER ] NO, THAT'S GOOD FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO HAVE BEEN AT THE SAME PLACE FOR SIX AND A HALF YEARS. IT'S A GOOD NUMBER TO STRIVE TO. BUT YOU ORIGINALLY STARTED ON THE ENGINEERING SIDE AND MOVED OVER TO THE INCLUSIVE DESIGN AREA. DID YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT JOURNEY, AND THEN WE'LL KEEP MOVING HERE. >> MATT: YEAH. OVER TIME, AT THE TIME, YOU MENTIONED THE SLACK PLATFORM. AND AT THE TIME WHEN I STARTED THE ONLY THINGS THAT REALLY EXISTED WERE, YOU KNOW, ACROBAT AND FLASH. AND WE ONLY HAVE ONE OF THOSE NOW. SO, BUT I WAS THE ACCESSIBILITY ENGINEER AT ADOBE. I HAD A LARGE TEAM OF ACCESSIBILITY PROFESSIONALS. AND OVER TIME I WENT FROM THAT TO AN ENGINEER TO MANAGING THAT TEAM OR PARTS OF THAT TEAM TO START TO TRAIN PEOPLE. SO WE BUILT AN ACCESSIBILITY TRAINING PROGRAM WHERE WE TRAINED OUR ENGINEERS AND TESTERS AND EVENTUALLY OUR MANAGERS AND OUR SALES STAFF ON ACCESSIBILITY ISSUES. AND WHEN I CAME TO THE DESIGN VICE PRESIDENT TO TALK ABOUT BRINGING IT TO THEIR TEAM, THEY ENDED UP HIRING ME INSTEAD. SO THAT BROUGHT ME OUT OF THE ACCESSIBILITY ORGANIZATION AND INTO ADOBE DESIGN WHERE I'VE BEEN FOR THE LAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS, JUST SPEAKING ABOUT IT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF WHAT IF INSTEAD OF TREATING THIS AS AN ENGINEERING PROBLEM WE TREATED THIS AS A DESIGN PROBLEM. THAT WE UNDERSTAND THE STRUCTURE BEHIND ALL OF IT AND WHAT THE IMPLICATIONS ARE FOR THE DECISIONS THAT WE MAKE. >> JENNISON: WE'LL GET ALL INTO THAT IN A MINUTE. BUT I DID WANT TO GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO PAUSE. SO I THINK IT WAS LAST WEEK ON TWITTER THAT YOU ANNOUNCED THE AVAILABILITY OF AN ADOBE INCLUSIVE DESIGN WORKSHOP CURRICULUM. DID YOU WANT TO TELL US ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT? >> MATT: YEAH. I'M REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THIS BECAUSE THIS IS KIND OF THE CULMINATION OF THAT WORK FROM LAST APRIL UNTIL THIS JANUARY, WHICH IS TIMED PRETTY WELL, I WAS TRAVELING AROUND THE WORLD. I HAVE SINCE STOPPED. BUT WE COVERED BASICALLY EVERY MAJOR HUB AND EVERY EMPLOYEE IN ADOBE DESIGN WITH A FULL-DAY WORKSHOP TALKING ABOUT NOT JUST DISABILITY BUT ALSO RACE, GENDER, SEXUALITY, LANGUAGE, LITERACY, CULTURE AND RELIGION, AGE, AND ALL OF THE INTERSECTIONS WITH TECHNOLOGY AND ANY KIND OF THE HISTORY OF INCLUSIVE DESIGN, AND KIND OF HISTORY IN GENERAL. SO WE COVERED A LOT OF TERRITORY IN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. WE GIVE THEM PRACTICAL TOOLS TO DESIGN, TO HELP CREATE AN ACCESSIBLE USER EXPERIENCE. SO WE RELEASED THAT ON MONDAY. WE HAD THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DOWNLOADING IT, YOU KNOW, JUST AMAZING AMOUNT OF ENERGY THAT'S BEHIND THAT PROJECT. SO, IT'S ON GITHUB. SO IF YOU SEARCH INCLUSIVE DESIGN, IT COMES UP ON GITHUB.COM. BUT IT'S AVAILABLE. YOU CAN DO PRETTY MUCH WHATEVER YOU WANT INCLUDING IF YOU WANT TO GO AND DO YOUR OWN COMMERCIAL INCLUSIVE DESIGN WORKSHOP, YOU CAN GO AHEAD AND DO THAT TOO. >> JENNISON: SO LET'S GET TO THE MEAT OF THE MATTER HERE. SO I WANT TO START FIRST BY ASKING YOU HOW IS ADOBE ADDRESSING, JUST IN GENERAL, XR AND DESIGN IN PHOTOSHOP? >> MATT: YEAH. SO WE HAVE A FEW DIFFERENT PROJECTS THAT ARE IN THE WORKS. AND FIRST OFF, PHOTO SHOP HAS ALREADY 3D MODELING TOOLKIT INSIDE IT. AND SOME OF IT WAS JUST USED FOR LIGHTING AND SHADING AND THINGS LIKE THAT. BUT WE'VE KIND OF EXPANDED INTO THAT. WE HAVE A NEW PRODUCT CALLED DIMENSION THAT'S ALL ABOUT 3D MODELING. AND IN PHOTOSHOP, WE ALSO HAVE THE IDEA OF 2.5D, WHERE JUST BY TAKING LAYERS, YOU COULD KIND OF BUILD, YOU KNOW, MAYBE LIKE AN ARCH THAT YOU COULD WALK THROUGH. SO WE HAVE THE TOOLS. LIKE, WE CREATE THE RAW CREATIVITY PLATFORM FOR PEOPLE TO PLAY AROUND WITH. AND RIGHT NOW WE'RE GOING TO MOVE INTO THIS PHASE OF HOW DO WE BRING THAT MATERIAL TO USERS SO THAT THEY CAN CREATE IT AND THEN THEY CAN PUT IT INTO LIKE A UNIT OR SOME KIND OF FRAMEWORK FOR DELIVERING 3D CONTENT. BECAUSE WE START THE TECHNOLOGY HASN'T REALLY SYNCED UP AND WE'RE STILL IN EXPLORATION TERRITORY. AND SO THE FIRST APP THAT WE HAVE TO DO THAT IS AERO. A-E-R-O. ADOBE AERO IS A TOOLKIT. IT'S A VIEWER. SO YOU CAN TAKE THE 2.5D DESIGNS AND LAY THEM OUT IN 3D SPACE AND BE ABLE TO MANIPULATE THEM. AND SO THERE ARE SOME USER EXPERIENCE THINGS WE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT FOR THAT SUCH AS HOW DO YOU PLACE THESE THINGS, HOW ARE YOU MOVING IN THIS SPACE, AND IF YOU CAN'T MOVE IN A GIVEN SPACE, WHETHER IT'S BECAUSE OF MOBILITY ISSUES OR BECAUSE YOU JUST PROJECTED IT ONTO SOMETHING WHERE YOU CAN'T MOVE IT THAT YOU CAN INSTEAD KIND OF PICK UP THAT OBJECT AND SORT OF BRING IT IN CLOSE AND PLAY WITH IT? THERE IS SOME SPATIAL STUFF ABOUT THIS THAT, YOU KNOW, ACCESSIBILITY REALLY HASN'T HAD TO DO IT BEFORE BECAUSE ALL WE REALLY THOUGHT OF WAS HERE'S A SCREEN, HERE'S A POINTING DEVICE AND A KEYBOARD AND/OR A QR CODE TO MOVE AROUND IN THE APPLICATION. AND NOW IT ACTUALLY DOES RELY ON THE ASPECTS OF MANIPULATING YOUR ENVIRONMENT. >> JENNISON: YEAH. SO LET'S DEFINITELY GET INTO THIS. BECAUSE FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE BEEN LIVING IN THE WEB AND MOBILE SPACE, WE'RE KIND OF LIKE, OKAY, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE CHALLENGES WE REALLY NEED TO THINK ABOUT? AND I THINK THIS WOULD BE A GOOD CALL TO ACTION. FROM THE PHYSICAL SPACE, HARDWARE CONSIDERATIONS, LIKE WHAT ARE SOME OF THE GOTCHAS THAT WE STILL DON'T HAVE ANSWERS TO RIGHT NOW THAT WE REALLY NEED TO GET ON TOP OF? >> MATT: WHAT WE THINK OF FROM THE ACCESSIBILITY SIDE, AND I WAS AT THE XR CONFERENCE IN NOVEMBER. WHAT I SAW WAS THERE WERE ACCESSIBILITY PEOPLE THAT WERE GETTING INTO XR. AND THERE WERE XR PEOPLE THAT WERE GETTING INTO ACCESSIBILITY. AND SO BETWEEN WHERE THE ACCESSIBILITY PEOPLE COME FROM THIS PERSPECTIVE WHERE WE HAVE BEEN SPENDING 25 YEARS SINCE THE ORIGINAL HOME PAGE ACCESSIBILITY GUIDELINES FROM THE TRACE CENTER ON BASICALLY A CALCULUS OF ACCESSIBILITY. HERE ARE YOUR FINAL OUTCOMES, AND WE KNOW LIKE WHAT THE REQUIREMENTS ARE FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THAT KIND OF 1995 KEYBOARD/MOUSE DISPLAY ENVIRONMENT. IT'S A LOT LESS SCIENCY WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHAT WE HAVE HERE. BECAUSE WE'RE OFF IN AN ENTIRELY NEW TERRITORY. WE'RE BLAZING TRAILS WITH THE TECHNOLOGY THAT WE HAVE. SO WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THINGS LIKE THE HARDWARE THAT WE HAVE ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH. NO OFFENSE TO ANYBODY THAT'S CREATED IT. BUT, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE IN AR OR VR. SO YOU HAVE THESE TWO DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES WHERE YOU'RE STILL IN THE REAL WORLD, BUT YOU HAVE THINGS THAT ARE SUPERIMPOSED AND SHADED ALL OVER THE SPACE. I'VE USED KIND OF ALL OF THE AR HEADSETS AND THE CONTRAST ON THEM IS JUST NOT GOING TO BE GOOD ENOUGH. I MEAN EVEN IN THE CONTROLLED SPACE, MUCH LESS IN NATURAL LIGHT OUT IN THE WORLD. AND THAT'S KIND OF WHERE WE WANT TO BE GOING. WE HAVE GLASSES ON OUR FACES AND THINGS ARE OUT THERE. JUST APPEAR. WE NEED TO HAVE REALLY BRIGHT DISPLAYS THAT ARE GOING TO BE RELIABLE AT ALL TIMES OR MOST USERS ARE GOING TO BE HAVING TROUBLE WITH THAT EXPERIENCE. SO I SEE A LOT OF THE STUFF AS JUST BEING A PROTOTYPE OF WHERE WE WANT TO BE TO BE GOING. AND WITH VR, THE TECHNOLOGY, I HAVE AN OCULUS, I HAVE A TON OF VR HEADSETS. I AM SUCH A GEEK. TO BE IN THE ROOM THAT I'M IN RIGHT NOW AND ALL OF THE GEAR THAT I HAVE SURROUNDING ME, IT'S A LITTLE TOO MUCH AT THIS POINT. THE CAPABILITIES OF THAT DEVICE, WE TOOK A STEP DOWN FROM THE TETHERED VR EXPERIENCE SO THAT WE COULD HAVE A GOOD ENOUGH TECHNOLOGY, QUOTE, UNQUOTE. AND NOW WE'RE KIND OF SETTLING IN, AND THE FRAMEWORKS ARE STARTING TO BE MATURE AND WE'RE GETTING HAND TRACKING, FUNCTIONALITY AND THE BROWSER IS STARTING TO BE SECURE AND WE'RE GETTING ABILITIES THAT WE CAN STREAM. THOSE THINGS HAVE ALL GENERATIONALLY, WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S KIND OF LIKE THE iPHONE WAS IN 2007. IT WAS GROUNDBREAKING BUT THERE'S WAY MORE GROUND TO BE BROKEN. AND ALL OF THESE THINGS HAVE TO DO WITH NEW TYPES OF CAPABILITIES. LIKE, I DON'T EVEN THINK WE REACHED ANYTHING APPROACHING SCIENCE IN ANY OF THIS, EVEN IN AREAS LIKE 360 AND 180 VR. LIKE WHERE DO CAPTIONS GO? HOW DO YOU HAVE A STANDARD WAY TO TURN THINGS ON AND OFF? THAT'S, AGAIN, WHERE THAT THEME IS. I THINK THAT'S WHAT THIS ORGANIZATION IS HERE TO TRY TO BRIDGE. >> JENNISON: THAT'S AWESOME. OBVIOUSLY, LIKE BILL, IN THE LAST TALK, YOU AND I COULD JUST CHAT ON AND ON. BUT LET'S SEE IF WE'VE GOT ANY QUESTIONS. >> MODERATOR: YEAH. WE HAVE A QUESTION FROM JANELL IN SLACK. THE QUESTION IS, BESIDES CONTINUED ADVOCACY AROUND INCLUSIVE DESIGN, HOW CAN INDIVIDUALS SUCH AS DESIGNERS AND ENGINEERS EVANGELIZE AND OPERATIONALIZE ACCESSIBILITY WHERE IT MAY NOT EXIST? >> MATT: SO, THERE ARE LAYERS TO ALL OF THIS. AND I'VE TALKED WITH HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE ABOUT THIS KIND OF ISSUE. THE INDIVIDUAL ALWAYS HAS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY HAVE SOME KIND OF AGENCY IN THIS PROCESS. I TALKED WITH PEOPLE THAT ARE LOOKING FOR CAREERS. AND I ALWAYS TRY TO REMIND THEM THAT AN INTERVIEW IS DIRECTIONAL. IT'S NOT JUST ARE YOU GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE COMPANY, BUT IS THE COMPANY GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU? SO, THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE GOING TO BE, LIKE, REALLY APPLYING STOCK ENERGY TO ISSUES OF INCLUSION, I THINK NOT ONLY IN DISABILITY BUT WITH THE CURRENT CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, WE ARE SEEING PEOPLE, LIKE, STARTING TO UNDERSTAND THAT AGENCY. SO, IT ISN'T THAT YOU NECESSARILY HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, SOLVE THIS PROBLEM AS AN INDIVIDUAL. BUT IT IS KIND OF TURNING UP THE PRESSURE ON THIS TO START TO THINK ABOUT SIMPLE STEPS THAT YOU CAN TAKE THAT WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO GAIN GROUND, THAT YOU'RE GOING TO GAIN PROGRESS. AND ONCE YOU'VE KIND OF BUILT UP A BODY OF WORK IN A CERTAIN AREA, YOU CAN START TO CLAIM THIS IS BECAUSE IT'S A MORE INCLUSIVE EXPERIENCE. AND ONCE YOU KIND OF HAVE GROUPS OF VICTORIES, THEN YOU START TO BE -- YOU KNOW, TO UNDERSTAND WITHIN AN ORGANIZATION AS LEADING, AS THIS IS WHAT'S GOOD FOR DESIGN. I THINK THAT IT TENDS TO BE A PROGRESSION. AND I KIND OF HAVE THE UNLOCK KEY. I HAD ONE PERSON THAT JUST SAID THIS IS WHAT WE NEED IN OUR ORGANIZATION. BUT IT CAME WITH A LOT OF WORK, A LOT OF CHIPPING AWAY AT KIND OF STIGMAS AROUND STABILITY AND OF THE IDEAS OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE MINIMUM THAT WE CAN DO. LIKE, THOSE KINDS OF QUESTIONS TO TRY TO THINK ABOUT IT FROM A DESIGN PERSPECTIVE WE THINK ABOUT NOT JUST HOW DO WE MEET STANDARDS ON THIS STUFF, BUT HOW DO WE TRANSCEND? HOW DO WE GET BEYOND THE, LIKE, JUST GOOD ENOUGH TO A REAL -- TO LIKE REALLY ACTUALLY IMPROVING THE STATE OF THINGS ALL AROUND? SO, IT'S ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT WHAT IS THE BEST THING THAT I CAN DO RIGHT NOW? LIKE, HOW CAN I DO MORE WORK IN A GIVEN DIRECTION AND HAVE IT STICK? >> JENNISON: HEY, DO WE HAVE TIME FOR ONE MORE QUESTION? OR SHOULD WE WRAP? >> MODERATOR: I THINK THEY'RE OUT OF TIME, UNFORTUNATELY. >> JENNISON: WELL, MATT, HOPEFULLY, YOU KNOW, I'LL JUST PUT THIS OUT THERE. 2008, IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE A BOOK HAS COME OUT. >> MATT: I KNOW. I JUST PUT OUT SEVEN NEW PAGES OF TRAINING LAST WEEK. JUST GIVE ME A MINUTE. [ LAUGHTER ] >> JENNISON: HEY, THANKS, MATT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS TIME. AND WE WISH THE SYMPOSIUM A GREAT REST OF THE DAY. >> MATT: ABSOLUTELY. ENJOY THE REST OF YOUR DAY. THANKS. \M\M >> VOICEOVER: THE XR ACCESS SYMPOSIUM IS NOW ON A TEN-MINUTE BREAK.