>> LARRY GOLDBERG: NOW WE'RE GOING TO MOVE ON TO OUR NEXT PRESENTATION, WHICH, AS I SAID, WE'RE EXPECTING TO BE EQUALLY AS REALLY FASCINATING. LET ME JUST GET MY DOCUMENT TOGETHER. WE HAVE JOEL AND DEVIN BOYLE. AND I'LL LET DEVIN GO AHEAD AND INTRODUCE JOEL AT HER SESSION ON EMPLOYMENT. THE REALLY ESSENTIAL ISSUES ON WHERE XR IS GOING.  
>> DEVIN BOYLE: ALL RIGHT. I'LL TAKE IT AWAY. THANKS EVERYBODY FOR JOINING TODAY. THANKS, ERIN, FOR PARTICIPATING. I'M DEVIN BOYLE WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF ACCESSIBILITY AND EMPLOYMENT TECHNOLOGY. BEFORE WE GET STARTED, WE WILL LEAVE TIME FOR Q&A. SO PLEASE SEND YOUR MESSAGES VIA SLACK. SO I'D LIKE TO INTRODUCE OUR SPEAKER TODAY WHO'S JOEL WARD, TECHNOLOGIST AT HAMILTON. I KNOW WE PROBABLY CHAT DAILY. YOU KNOW, MORE THAN TEN TIMES A DAY. I GUESS I'LL START WITH SOMETHING SIMPLE. CAN YOU GIVE THE AUDIENCE A QUICK OVERVIEW OF WHO YOU ARE AND HOW YOU CAME TO BE HERE TODAY?  
>> JOEL WARD: SURE, YEAH. MY NAME IS JOEL WARD. I WORK AT BOOZ ALLEN HAMILTON. I'VE ACTUALLY WORKED HERE FOR QUITE A LONG TIME. I AM A COMEBACK KID. I USED TO DO WEB DEVELOPMENT AND THINGS LIKE SHAREPOINTS AND ACTUALLY GOT INVOLVED WITH ACCESSIBILITY BACK IN THE '90s WITH SECTION 503 HERE IN THE UNITED STATES. BUT MORE RECENTLY GOT INVOLVED WHEN WE OPENED OUR INNOVATION CENTER A FEW YEARS AGO. I FELT LOVED. AND SINCE THEN I'VE ACTUALLY MOVED MY FOCUS TO XR WITH ACTUALLY A BIGGER FOCUS ON AUGMENTED REALITY. PERSONALLY, I FIND THIS INTERESTING, I WENT TO SCHOOL TO GET SOME GRADUATE CERTIFICATE FROM GEORGE MASON ACTUALLY IN ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY. AND ACTUALLY SPEAKING OF TESTERS, I HAVE A BUILT-IN TESTER HERE AT HOME. MY YOUNGER SON HAS CEREBRAL PALSY. SO I'M VERY PERSONALLY INTERESTED IN THIS AS WELL BECAUSE HE LOVES VIRTUAL REALITY AND I'D LOVE IT TO BE ACCESSIBLE TO HIM AND FIND OTHER WAYS TO GET INVOLVED..  
>> DEVIN: THANKS, JOEL. I'M SURE HE HAS A GREAT TIME. THAT'S GREAT. SO WE'RE OUT HERE TODAY TO TALK ABOUT THE INTERSECTION OF XR EMPLOYMENT AND HOW IT IMPACTS PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES. BEFORE WE DO A DEEP DIVE INTO ACCESSIBILITY CONSIDERATIONS, CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE CURRENT AND FUTURE STATE OF XR IN OUR LIVES AND WORKPLACE. 
 >> JOEL: I LOVED HEARING FROM TOM, AND MATT AND ERIN BEFORE. TOM TALKING ABOUT HOW HE WAS INVOLVED ALL THE WAY -- WAY BACK WHEN IN THE '60s WHEN I SAY THE MODERN VIRTUAL REALITY STARTED. APPARENTLY VR GOES BACK TO THE 1800s IN SOME WAYS. THE MODERN STUFF HE HELPED KICK OFF. WE REALLY DIDN'T SEE IT GET COMMERCIALIZED IN THE CONSUMER SPACE UNTIL MAYBE THE PAST FIVE YEARS OR SO WITH THE OCULUS AND ON A VIRTUAL REALITY SIDE AND AUGMENTED REALITY IS EVEN FURTHER BEHIND I'D SAY IN GENERAL AS I THINK MATT MENTIONED, THE DEVICES ARE STILL NOT REALLY WHERE WE WANT THEM TO BE. BUT WE SEE THEM COMING, AND THIS IS WHY IT'S A GOOD TIME FOR XR ACCESS TO FOCUS ON THIS. MY COMPANY, WE DO A LOT OF WORK WITH XR, MOSTLY VR UP TO THIS POINT AGAIN BECAUSE THE TECHNOLOGY HAS BEEN MORE MATURE DOING THINGS LIKE TRAINING, WHICH IS A BIG AREA THAT ALSO HAS BEEN MENTIONED. BUT THERE'S A BUNCH OF OTHER USES THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT, AND THAT ACTUALLY CROSSES OVER INTO A DISCUSSION WE'RE HAVING THESE NEXT TWO DAYS ABOUT WHERE IT WILL APPLY OUTSIDE OF WHERE WE'VE SEEN IT, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY GAMING, WHICH IS WHERE THE CONSUMER SIDE STARTED AND TRAINING, WHICH ACTUALLY PLACES LIKE THE MILITARY AND THE GOVERNMENT HAVE BEEN DOING FOR DECADES LIKE TOM WAS WORKING ON. WE'VE ALSO BEEN SEEING THINGS LIKE CONFERENCES, I THINK ERIN MENTIONED A LOT OF CONFERENCES ARE DOING -- GOING ONLINE, PRETTY MUCH EVERY CONFERENCE IS GOING ONLINE, AND EVEN CONFERENCES LIKE THIS AREN'T ACCESSIBLE. THERE ARE SOME CONFERENCES THAT HAVE GONE INTO XR, VR, AND THEY NOTED IT'S NOT ACCESSIBLE. WE KNOW THIS NEEDS TO GET BETTER. IT'S GOING TO BECOME A LARGER PART OF WHAT WE DO, AND THEN WE'RE GOING TO SEE IT EXPAND OUT OF THAT EVENTS AND MEETINGS AND CONFERENCES TO THINGS LIKE THE TRAINING, MORE TRAINING, HANDS ON TRAINING, THE ABILITY TO DO REMOTE ASSISTANCE, NAVIGATING REAL WORLD AUGMENTED REALITY, SO STEPPING PEOPLE THROUGH THINGS IN DIFFERENT WAYS EITHER VISUALLY OR AUDIO OR BOTH. ACTUALLY DOING WORK, NOT JUST CONSUMING BUT CREATING, AND, FOR EXAMPLE, 3D ARTISTS DO EVERYTHING ON 2 D SCREAMING. YOU CAN DO THIS NOW WHERE YOU CREATE IT IN 3D, HOW DO YOU DO THAT, MAKE IT ACCESSIBLE IS A BIG QUESTION. THINGS LIKE DIGITAL TWINS. WE CAN'T GO TO PLACES NOW. EVEN WHEN, YOU CAN SAY MANAGE A FACTORY, FOR EXAMPLE, OR ANOTHER LOCATION THAT YOU CAN'T GO TO OR MAYBE DON'T WANT TO GO OR IT'S DANGEROUS BUT YOU COULD ACTUALLY INTERACT WITH THAT LOCATION EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE NOT PHYSICALLY THERE. AND THEN YOU GET INTO STUFF LIKE MEDICAL, IMMUNOTHERAPY, RIGHT, SO IT'S ALL THE STUFF WE'RE TOUCHING ON IN OUR COMPANY, AND I HAVE A VERY BIG INTEREST, ESPECIALLY WITH SORT OF THE COLLABORATION SPACE, LIKE A VERSION OF WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW IN XR, WHICH EITHER COULD BE AR OR VR. IT COULD BE TO CHAT, SOCIAL, IT COULD BE MORE OF A PROFESSIONAL THING, AND ACTUALLY, THE INTERESTING IN THE MEDICAL AND THERAPY SIDE, ESPECIALLY NOW TO GET TOGETHER, THESE THINGS ARE SO VERY IMPORTANT. HOW CAN WE USE THIS AS PART OF THAT? NOT NECESSARILY REPLACING IT BUT AUGMENTS IT IN SOME WAYS TO MAKE IT A BETTER EXPERIENCE. THAT'S WHERE WE ARE WITH THIS RIGHT NOW. 
 >> DEVIN: SURE, I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD SPEAK TO -- SPEAK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT THE COLLABORATION PLATFORM MIGHT LOOK LIKE IN THE FUTURE FOR A PERSON WITH A DISABILITY. HOW MIGHT THEY ENGAGE IN THAT PLATFORM?
 >> JOEL: SURE, YEAH, WE'VE BEEN USING -- I LIKE WHAT THESE COMPANIES ARE DOING BECAUSE THEY'RE PROVIDING DIFFERENT WAYS FOR PEOPLE TO INTERACT WITH THESE VIRTUAL SPACES. SPATIAL AND HUBS ALLOW YOU TO USE YOUR LAPTOP WITHOUT A HEADSET, WHICH IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE NOT EVERYBODY HAS A HEADSET OR MAY NOT BE ABLE TO GET INTO A HEADSET BUT STILL PROVIDE A 3D SPACE. IF YOU HAVE A VR HEADSET, YOU CAN GET INTO IT AND HAVE THAT FULLY THREE DIMENSIONAL ENVIRONMENT, AND SPATIAL IS LEADING A CHARGE IN AN AUGMENTED REALITY VERSION OF THAT. IT'S A PAIR OF GLASSES THAT PROVIDES YOU THE VIRTUAL EXPERIENCE BUT YOU'RE STILL INTERACTING WITH THE REAL WORLD. THAT'S SORT OF A HAPPY MEDIUM. A BRIDGE BETWEEN AR AND VR, IT BRINGS IN REAL CONTENT INTO IT SO YOU CAN STILL INTERACT, AND ALSO THAT HAS AN ACCESSIBLE, YOU KNOW, IT PROVIDES ACCESSIBILITY. GOING BACK TO MY SON, HE USES AN AUGMENTED COMMUNICATION DEVICE, WHICH HE CAN'T GET TO IN OCULUS QUEST. FOR THE MOST PART WHEN HE'S DOING THINGS HE DOESN'T NEED IT, BUT WHEN HE GETS TO THE POINT HE NEEDS TO COMMUNICATE, HOW DOES THAT GET INTEGRATED. IS THERE A VIRTUAL VERSION OF IT. SO HAVING THESE DIFFERENT WAYS OF GETTING IN PROVIDES ALL OF US, RIGHT, AND IN PARTICULAR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES THE ABILITY TO INTERACT IN THE WAY THAT THEY CHOOSE, RIGHT? AND THEN AN EXTENSION OF THAT IS EVEN HAVING A REPRESENTATION OF YOU THAT YOU CHOOSE THAT ISN'T NECESSARILY YOUR VIDEO, AND THAT'S THE WHOLE IDEA OF CREATING AN AVATAR, IS IT YOU? IS IT MORE OF A VIRTUAL YOU? IS IT AN ALTERNATIVE VERSION OF YOU? MAYBE YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE IT, AND THEN YOU'VE SAID WHAT KIND OF REPRESENTATION IN THIS ENVIRONMENT AND HOW YOU MOVE AROUND AND HOW YOU INTERACT. IT PROVIDES YOU DIFFERENT WAYS SIMILAR TO THE PHYSICAL WORLD BUT FROM ANYWHERE, RIGHT? AND USUALLY ANY KIND OF DEVICES THAT YOU MIGHT NEED TO INTERACT. 
 >> DEVIN: THANKS, JOEL. I THINK I WILL FOREVER BE A PANDA BEAR AS MY AVATAR, BUT YOU KNOW. 
 >> JOEL: YEAH. 
 >> DEVIN: WE'LL SEE, MAYBE SOMEDAY WHEN I GROW UP. SO I DON'T THINK WE CAN GET AWAY FROM THIS CONVERSATION WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE ARE CALLING THE NEW NORMAL, IF YOU WILL, AS IT RELATES TO SORT OF XR AND HOW WE'RE WORKING, TELEPRESENCE AND COLLABORATION AND HOW WE ENGAGE IN LIFE AND HOW IT'S SHIFTING, RIGHT? SO WHEN YOU'RE CONSIDERING THE NEW NORMAL, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS OR WILL MEAN FOR VIRTUAL ENGAGEMENT AND XR AND APPLICATIONS FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES IN THE WORKPLACE? 
 >> JOEL: YEAH, SO WE'VE BEEN FORTUNATE IN THAT, RIGHT? AND I WAS HOPING WE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN TO A BETTER POINT BEFORE THIS HAPPENED, BUT THIS HAS ACTUALLY PROVEN WE HAVE NOT BEEN READY, I'M NOT JUST THINKING ABOUT THE UNITED STATES, THE REST OF THE WORLD, WE WERE NOT READY TO BE SEPARATED FROM EACH OTHER PHYSICALLY SO MUCH. WE DO HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY, BUT AS WE'VE SEEN WITH MANY BUSINESSES, GOVERNMENT AND SCHOOLS, DEFINITELY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, EVEN THOUGH WE HAD THE TECHNOLOGY, IT WAS NOT READY EVEN IN THE FORM THAT WE'RE USING NOW, LET ALONE XR. BUT BECAUSE XR HAS THE -- CAN DO MORE THINGS THAN JUST A CONVERSATION AND A SIMPLE CONTENT SHARING, THIS -- THIS IS GOING TO -- I REALLY TRULY BELIEVE THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN ANYWAY. IN 20, 30 YEARS, LIKE YOU SEE IN THE MOVIES, BUT WE WILL HAVE SOMETHING LIKE THAT WHERE YOU CAN ENGAGE IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND THERE'S A QUESTION, ONE LARGE WORLD OR MULTIPLE SMALLER WORLDS IN HOW THEY CONNECT, BUT IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. OUR CULTURE WILL HELP DECIDE ON HOW IT WILL ACTUALLY REPLACE PHYSICAL, BUT IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, AND IN PART BECAUSE, IT ALLOWS US TO DO THINGS WITHOUT TRAVELING AS MUCH, EVEN WITHOUT THE PANDEMIC. THAT HAS BEEN A CONCERN AND WITH ALL THESE COMPANIES THAT ARE DOING REMOTE ZOOM, THE ZOOM REMOTE CALLS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SELL, AT THIS POINT WE CAN'T DO IT, BUT EVEN AFTER THIS ENDS, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO CONSIDER DO I REALLY NEED TO TRAVEL FOR A ONE-HOUR MEETING. USING ZOOM OR MAYBE IN A 3D SPACE. PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO MAYBE LIVE WHERE THEY WANT TO LIVE, THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN HAPPENING, BUT NOW YOU CAN LIVE ANYWHERE. YOU DON'T HAVE TO -- EVEN IF YOU LIVE IN THE SAME CITY, YOU DON'T HAVE TO NECESSARILY COME INTO THE OFFICE. SO THEN YOU CAN SPEND MORE TIME WORKING AND THEN HAVING YOUR PERSONAL LIFE WITHOUT HAVING TO COMMUTE AND ALSO WORRY ABOUT AN OFFICE SPACE, AND ONLY USE IT MAYBE WHEN IT'S ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY OR THERE'S A PARTICULAR REASON. SO THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN ANYWAY, THE NEW NORMAL AT LEAST FOR THE NEXT SIX MONTHS TO A YEAR, MAYBE LONGER, WE ACTUALLY ARE STUCK WITH THIS. I REALLY DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO GO BACK TO ANYTHING LIKE IT WAS IN 2019 FOR A WHILE, SO LET'S TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO ACTUALLY JUMP INTO THESE THINGS THAT WE SHOULD HAVE ALREADY LOOKED AT IN MORE DETAIL BEFORE. SO AT THIS POINT WE DON'T HAVE AN EXCUSE, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES, I THINK ALL TECHNOLOGY CAN BE HELPFUL. IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN IT IS HELPFUL. IT CAN BE HELPFUL. THAT'S WHY I'M DEFINING WHERE DOES IT ACTUALLY FIT TO NOT ONLY PROVIDE THE ABILITY FOR EVERYBODY TO PARTICIPATE BUT ACTUALLY HELP IN SPECIFIC AREAS, RIGHT? LIKE IS IT BETTER TO DO DESIGN FOR EVERYBODY IN VR VERSUS IN THE MORE TRADITIONAL WAY. THERE ARE CERTAIN KINDS OF MEETINGS OR EVENTS THAT ACTUALLY WOULD BE BETTER IN THAT KIND OF SPACE VERSUS TRYING TO GET EVERYBODY TOGETHER. I DON'T HAVE THE ANSWERS, BUT I HAVE THE GUESSES THAT I THINK SOME OF THESE THINGS COULD WORK. IF WE GET -- IF WE MAKE THIS AVAILABLE AND ACCESSIBLE, AND IF IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK, AND SO WE'RE AT THE POINT WHERE WE HAVE TO MAKE IT WORK. YOU THINK THIS IS POSSIBLE, WE THINK THIS TECHNOLOGY IS GOOD, BUT WE -- YEAH, LIKE WE COULDN'T HOLD THIS THING TODAY BECAUSE NONE OF THESE PLATFORMS ARE ACCESSIBLE ENOUGH. AND I'D LOVE TO -- PUT THE CHALLENGE OUT THERE, LIKE NEXT YEAR WE HAVE THIS. COULD WE ACTUALLY DO THE WHOLE THING IN SOMETHING LIKE HUBS. I LOVE THAT. BUT WE HAVE A LOT TO DO TO GET THERE. 
 >> DEVIN: YEAH, NO, I AGREE, AND IT SEEMS LIKE WHAT THIS NEW NORMAL HAS BROUGHT TO LIGHT ARE THE ACCESSIBILITY ISSUES, SOME OF WHICH WE MAY NOT HAVE EVEN THOUGHT OF, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES TO SOME OF THESE VIRTUAL PLATFORMS AND TELEWORKING PLATFORMS. SO THE SILVER LINING, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'D CALL IT. 
 >> JOEL: RIGHT. 
 >> DEVIN: NOT SILVER LINING, BUT YOU KNOW, IT DID BRING THAT OUT IN THE FOREFRONT, SO I'M REALLY HAPPY ABOUT THAT. OKAY. SO WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF TIME LEFT, SO I'M HOPING WE CAN -- ALREADY ASKED THIS QUESTION, A DEEPER DIVE INTO ACCESSIBILITY AS IT RELATES TO XR. WHY DO WE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION? WHY DO WE NEED TO ACT SPECIFICALLY, RIGHT? WHO DO WE NEED AT THE TABLE I THINK IS A REALLY IMPORTANT CONVERSATION, PARTICULARLY AS WE HAVE THIS GROUP OF 200 PLUS PEOPLE IN THIS VIRTUAL MEETING RIGHT NOW. 
 >> JOEL: RIGHT. SO WE TALKED ABOUT THIS A LITTLE BIT, SOME OF THE OTHER FOLKS HAD BROUGHT THIS UP. WE GENERALLY KNOW THAT XR HAS NOT DEALT IN GENERAL WITH ACCESSIBILITY IN MIND AT LEAST AT THE PLATFORM LEVEL AND EVEN THE DEVICE LEVEL. IT'S NOT BUILT IN THE SAME WAY, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, WEB HAS HAD A 20, 30-YEAR -- WELL, ALMOST 30-YEAR HEAD START ON IT. AND THINGS LIKE BUILDINGS AND ACTUALLY, IN A WAY, IT'S KIND OF A COMBINATION OF HOW WE HAVE A COMBINATION AND PHYSICAL BUILDINGS AND HOW WE HAVE COMBINATIONS AND WEBSITES COMING TOGETHER BECAUSE OF THE WHOLE SPATIAL IDEA. HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE THAT IN A VIRTUAL SPACE. A LOT OF THAT COULD BE SIMILAR TO AN ACTUAL PHYSICAL SPACE AND ACTUALLY WOULD PROBABLY BE APPROPRIATE FOR AUGMENTED REALITY. HOW DOES AN AUGMENTED REALITY DEVICE WORK FOR THE ACTUAL WORLD. THERE'S ALREADY APPS LIKE SEEING AI, BUT IMAGINE IF YOU HAD THAT IN A PAIR OF GLASSES OR SOMETHING THAT YOU COULD HOLD UP AND MANIPULATE THAT HELPS YOU INTERACT. IT'S THE MERGING OF THE PHYSICAL AND VIRTUAL WORLDS IN A WAY, THE ONLINE WORLDS. SO WE KNOW IT'S NOT WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE, BUT WE HAVE LOT OF THE PIECES, RIGHT? BASED ON BUILDINGS, BUT DEFINITELY WHAT APPLICATIONS AND GAMING HAS DONE AND WEBSITES, WHICH IS ACTUALLY WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT. THERE ARE THINGS THAT GUIDE US, BUT TO THE POINT THAT EVERYBODY HAS MADE, WE NEED PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES TO HELP US EVALUATE THIS, AND SO IT IS SORT OF THE CHICKEN AND THE EGG. WE KNOW IT'S NOT WORK ING. WE CAN'T JUST SAY NO, WE CAN'T LOOK AT IT BECAUSE IT'S NOT ACCESSIBLE, WE HAVE TO TRY IT BECAUSE WE KNOW IT'S GOING TO BREAK, AND THEN DOCUMENT WHAT'S WRONG WITH IT, RIGHT? AND THEN START IMPROVING IT, AND WORKING WITH THE COMPANIES THAT ARE BUILDING BOTH THE SOFTWARE AND THE HARDWARE TO MAKE SURE THAT GETS INTO THE NEXT GENERATION. SOFTWARE -- SOFTWARE CAN BE UPGRADED. HARDWARE, OBVIOUSLY IS A MUCH LONGER CYCLE, BUT THERE'S MANY WAYS OF AUGMENTS CURRENT DEVICES AND THEN BUILDING INTO THE NEXT GENERATION OF DEVICES THAT WE WANT TO LOOK TOWARDS. SO THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE TO GET INVOLVED, RIGHT? AND THEN THAT'S I THINK ONE POINT WHERE WE HAVE THIS ORGANIZATION IS TO CONNECT ALL THOSE PEOPLE TOGETHER IN THE INDUSTRY THAT ARE USERS AND THEN ACADEMIC SIDE THERE'S A LOT COMING ON AS WELL, AND A LOT OF THE RESEARCH HAPPENS THERE, MERGE THAT INTO MORE OF A -- I DON'T WANT TO CALL IT A STANDARD OR GUIDELINE BUT SOMETHING THAT EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS ACROSS THE BOARD. NOT EVERY APPLICATION AND EVERY DEVICE HAS TO BE BUILT FROM THE GROUND UP. WE WANT SOME SORT OF COMMON STANDARD OR REFERENCE SO EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE. THAT GOES NOT JUST TO A WRITTEN STANDARD BUT EVEN THE PHILOSOPHY THAT NEEDS TO GO INTO WHY YOU'RE BUILDING IT THAT WAY, RIGHT? AND TEACHING PEOPLE -- TEACHING PEOPLE THAT THEY NEED TO THINK ABOUT IT WHEN THEY'RE BUILDING IT. IT'S NOT JUST A CHECKLIST. IT'S KNOWING WHAT KIND OF THINGS YOU NEED TO THINK ABOUT BUT ALSO INCLUDING PEOPLE AS YOU'RE TESTING IT, AND WE'RE DRIVING AND TESTING IT, THAT WILL ACTUALLY BE USING IT. TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY, YOU CAN'T ALWAYS INCLUDE LIKE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE EVERY TIME, BUT I BELIEVE IT'S -- YOU DON'T EVEN NEED THAT MANY PEOPLE TO MAKE SURE YOU GOT IT RIGHT, RIGHT? YOU JUST NEED ENOUGH TO HAVE IT REVIEWED, AND YOU'D LEARN OVER TIME AND IT BECOMES PART OF YOUR USER EXPERIENCE DESIGN AND TESTING AND THAT'S OUR GOAL. THAT'S MY GOAL, AT LEAST. 
 >> DEVIN: YEAH, TO YOUR POINT, IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU DO AT THE END -- AT THE FINAL STAGE OF DEVELOPMENT, YOU NEED TO DO IT THROUGHOUT THE PROCESS, WHICH IS A MOVING PIECE OF IT. OKAY. SO BEFORE WE GET INTO Q & A, ANY LAST WORDS? ANY LAST WORDS FOR THE GROUP? 
 >> JOEL: YEAH, WELL, I LOVE THE FACT THAT WE HAVE SOME OF THE PEOPLE SIGNED UP FOR THIS. BREAKOUT SESSION TOMORROW, AND SO THE HARDWARE DEVICES GROUP, AND I'M REALLY EXCITED TO GET MORE PEOPLE ATTACHED TO THAT AND THEN THE SECOND YEAR, START LOOKING AT SOME SPECIFIC SOLUTIONS TO THE PROBLEMS THAT WE KNOW ARE OUT THERE, BUT EVERYONE NEEDS TO HEAR OR PLEASE JOIN IF YOU'RE NOT ALREADY PART OF IT AND PARTICIPATE IN SOME WAY OR THE OTHER. THAT'S WHAT -- THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THIS DECISION THE WAY WE WANT IT TO. 
 >> DEVIN: YEAH, AND YOU CAN GO TO XRACCESS.ORG AND FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THE DIFFERENT WORKING GROUPS, WHAT THEY'RE FOCUSED ON AND DETERMINE IF YOU WANT TO JOIN ONE. OKAY. SO MAYBE YOU COULD LEAD INTO SOME Q & A? DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS THERE? 
 >> MODERATOR: WE HAVE A NUMBER OF GREAT QUESTIONS IN THIS ONE. NOT SURE IF WE'LL BE ABLE TO GET TO ALL OF THEM. DEB ASKS, ARE THERE ANY COMPANIES AT THE MOMENT THAT ARE THINKING ABOUT ACCESSIBILITY WHEN THERE'S SO MANY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES TO COMPANIES AND WHAT THINGS NEED TO BE CONSIDERED WHEN LOOKING AT XR AT FULL SCALE FOR ENTERPRISE? 
 >> JOEL: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION. ACTUALLY, WE HAVE A COUPLE THAT ARE PART OF OUR DEMOS THAT I'LL HAVE TO MENTION, AND I KNOW ACTUALLY WITH TWO OF THEM, THEY'RE FORMER COLLEAGUES OF MAIN, ONE IS MOON BEAM IS ONE OF THE DEMOS THAT IS BUILDING ON TOP OF VR COLLABORATION PLATFORM TO ADD IN AUTO CAPTIONING AND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, WHICH IS VERY COOL. JUST THE BEGINNING I THINK OF WHERE WE NEED TO GO WITHIN THESE VIRTUAL ENVIRONMENTS, THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT IT THAT WAY FROM ACCESSIBILITY AND AN EFFICIENCY STANDPOINT, HOW YOU CAN USE THESE VIRTUAL SPACES TO BETTER CONNECT WITH PEOPLE AND ALSO COLLECT THE -- ALL THE CONTENT AND DISCUSSION GOING ON. THE OTHER ONE IS ALCHEMY, THEY'VE ADDED IN THE FEATURES LIKE CAPTIONING AND DESCRIPTIONS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. THAT'S ON THE GAMING SIDE THERE SO NOT SO MUCH ENTERPRISE. I THINK, THOUGH, THERE'S A LOT OF COMPANIES WHERE WE NEED TO PULL THEM IN HERE IS THAT THERE'S NOT AS MANY AS I'D LIKE TO SEE THAT ARE REALLY THINKING ABOUT IT FROM A HOLISTIC STANDPOINT. OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, I ACTUALLY CAN'T THINK OF ANY OTHERS THAT I'VE BEEN WORKING WITH, WHICH IS WHY I'M INVOLVED IN THIS. WE NEED TO GET THEM THINKING ABOUT IT. A LOT WERE THINKING HOW CAN THEY GET PEOPLE INTERESTED. IT'S STILL RELATIVELY SMALL USER BASE, SO THEY'RE THINKING JUST MORE IN THE TRADITIONAL WAY. WE NEED TO SHOW THEM THAT IF THEY'RE NOT THINKING ABOUT ACCESSIBILITY NOW, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO REALLY BE ABLE TO GO FULL ENTERPRISE, LIKE MY COMPANY HAS 20,000 PEOPLE. WE CAN'T GO WITH ANY OF THESE FOR ENTERPRISE. I'LL TELL YOU NOW. EVEN THE TRAINING STUFF, WE'D HAVE TO HAVE ALTERNATIVES. FOR EXAMPLE, COLLABORATION STUFF, WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO HAVE IT JUST AS OUR DEFAULT COLLABORATION PLATFORM NOW. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO CHANGE. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? 
 >> MODERATOR: SO NEXT UP IS FROM TOM. SHOULD THE LONG-TERM GOAL BE TO ELIMINATE THE DISABILITIES IN THE XR SPACE SO YOU CAN'T TELL IF SOMEONE HAS A DISABILITY, OR IS IT IMPORTANT FOR IDENTITY TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE DISABILITIES THAT ARE A REALITY FOR MANY IN THE PROFESSIONAL SPACE? 
 >> JOEL: YEAH, SO DEVIN AND I YESTERDAY WE TALKED ABOUT THIS. I DON'T THINK IT'S -- I WOULD NOT SUGGEST AT ALL THAT WE ELIMINATE IT AND WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT EVERYBODY WOULD HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE WHAT THEY -- HOW THEY WANT TO REPRESENT THEMSELVES, AND I WOULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO REPRESENT THEMSELVES AS THEMSELVES, BUT JUST LIKE ONLINE, THERE'S DIFFERENT WAYS OF LIKE TWITTER HANDLES AND NAMES AND EVEN YOUR PHOTOS THAT COULD TRANSLATE TO VR AND AR AND VIRTUAL. IF YOU WANTED TO BE YOU, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, SPATIAL DOES A GREAT JOB. A PHOTO MAKES AN AVATAR LOOK JUST LIKE YOU, AND IT ACTUALLY CAN MOVE AROUND LIKE YOU. WHAT THEY DON'T DO NOW AND I'D LOVE TO SEE IS THE ABILITY TO SAY IF I HAVE A DISABILITY, I COULD MAKE IT LOOK LIKE ME AND WITH THE BODY TYPE OF MAYBE A WHEELCHAIR OR SOME OTHER SORT OF ASSISTIVE DEVICE IF YOU WANT IT, BUT IF YOU DON'T, THAT'S UP TO YOU. AND I -- I GUESS THERE IS A BIG PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION ON WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO DO IT. HONESTLY, GIVING PEOPLE THE OPTION IS THE BEST WAY BS NOT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER WHERE IT'S FORCING YOU TO DO ONE OR THE OTHER. I THINK THAT'S ONE AREA THAT IS EVOLVING. ALSO, TECHNOLOGY IS EVOLVING TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT WHERE EVEN IF IN SOME OF THESE APPLICATIONS YOU CAN CHOOSE YOUR OUTFITS AND SOME OF THEM CAN'T. JUST A SIMPLE OUTFIT IS A BIG DEAL. EVENTUALLY WE'D LIKE IT TO BE BODY TYPE AND ALL THE OTHER THINGS THAT MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE YOU. EVENTUALLY, THERE'S EVEN WAYS OF BRINGING IN CAMERAS TO BRING IN THE REAL YOU, RIGHT? INTO THE VIRTUAL SPACE, WHICH ACTUALLY CAN HAPPEN. NOW IT'S JUST MUCH MORE COMPLICATED, AND NOT SO RELIABLE. MAYBE THAT'S THE WAY TO DO IT. IT'S REALLY YOU MOVING AROUND AND ACTUALLY CAPTURING THAT EXACTLY AS YOU ARE IF YOU WANTED TO. I HOPE THAT HELPS. I WOULDN'T SUGGEST -- IT'S DEFINITELY ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AT THIS POINT, AND ACTUALLY, I'D BE CURIOUS TO KNOW WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK OF THAT AND HONESTLY, JUST LEAVE IT TO -- LEAVE THE OPTION OPEN, RIGHT, AT THIS POINT. 
 >> DEVIN: THANKS, JOEL -- I THINK WE'RE OUT OF TIME, SO PLEASE CONTINUE ASKING QUESTIONS, AND WE'LL BE AROUND TO RESPOND.