Liz Hyman: Welcome to our discussion today on realizing inclusive value. My name is Liz Hyman. I’m the President and CEO of the XR Association. We're a nonprofit trade association representing businesses in the XR ecosystem. I’m really delighted to be the moderator of this panel today. We wanted to take our time to focus the discussion on how we can make accessibility in virtual augmented and mixed reality a smart and attractive investment for developers and manufacturers and customers and everyone. Fortunately, we have some really wonderful panelists today that bring tremendous background and expertise to this topic. I wanted to start off with brief introductions and ask each of you to say hello to the audience. Shane, why don't we start with you. 

Shane Kanady: Thank you, Liz. Happy to share a bit of information about my background that's most relevant to the discussion. Among other roles, I serve as a Senior Fellow G3ICT. G3ICT is a nonprofit organization originally founded to support Article 9 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which is on accessibility. Over the past 15 years, the organization has increased its focus to other areas of the CRPD in recognition the role technology broadly plays in advancing human rights. Through my career, I have done research and advocacy with persons with disabilities and their social and em inclusion and worked with members of congress and their staff on technology and labor policy and I’m happy to be here with you today. 

Liz Hyman: George, why don't you go next, if you don't mind? 

George Karalis: Hi, I’m George Karalis. I’m the group product manager at Strivr. We're building the enterprise VR platform for immersive learning that has trained almost a million people at Fortune 500 companies with VR has trained almost a million people at Fortune 500 companies with VR. In terms of accessibility, I've done research on accessible technology at Cornell University and University of Washington and with Microsoft Research. I have been a champion for accessibility in XR since I started working on XR products about 5 years ago. Previously at Microsoft and then at Strivr. Thanks for having me. 

Liz Hyman: Thank you, George. And Deb, can you introduce yourself? 

Deb Mayers: Hey, sure. I’m Deb Mayers. I'm @debmayers24 at Twitter. I’m originally an ancient historian, I became a technologist five years ago. I’m mainly involved in virtual augmented reality for to trying to recreate the past. And since then, I have been doing content development for the past few years. Focused on UI and web development. I've been involved in accessibility and WCAG standards for the past two years. 

Liz Hyman: Awesome. Okay. As I said, we have a fantastic panel. I’ll start the conversation with a little bit of a place setter, if you will. I think the place to start is we all know and love the gaming side of XR, and undoubtedly this will continue to be a core audience for emerging technologies. In the last year and a half, I think we have seen some focus brought to enterprise side of the conversation. I'm struck by a study that I saw. It was a 2020 McKinsey global survey of executives. In the wake of Covid, it was looking at companies and determining they have accelerated digitalization generally of their customer and supply chain interactions, and of their internal operations within three to four years. And the share of digital or digitally enabled products in their portfolio has accelerated by an unbelievable seven years. We have seen an incredible move toward digitalization in light of Covid. And more and more, I think we're seeing that is relevant to XR and that that will be part of the digitalization trend. This lined up with the study that the XR association did. It is about a year old and it was entitled New Reality in Immersive Technology: Insights and Industry Trends. What we were trying to do is benchmark the growth and adoption of XR technology among enterprise users across six key industry segments. Health, education, manufacturing, retail, public safety and job training. So, I wanted to share a couple of high level results from that survey that I thought might be relevant to the conversation here today. The first take away is the level of knowledge among leaders in these fields is really pretty good when it comes to XR. 75% of the respondents have heard of XR. 94% thought XR could be useful in terms of applications to the business. In the second take away that I wanted to share and which I think is pretty notable is three of four leaders expect to invest more money and resources into XR in the coming five years. That was pretty healthy across all of the different groups. It was 75% to 85% roughly which is a good number and particularly strong in manufacturing and job trainings and retail and health care. We also wanted to take a look at how Covid might specifically impact the adoption of XR. Really, all sectors felt that XR had a role to play in their recovery for post-pandemic efforts. It was particularly so with the case of training and learning outcomes and enabling better communication and collaboration. Those were the leading areas where they thought XR could be particularly impactful and help industry recover from the effects of Covid. If these trends hold steady and I believe they will, I think becomes even more important that we work today to ensure that the technology is accessible and baked in from the start. So, with that as, as I said, a place setting for our conversation, I wanted to ask a few questions. I’ll start with Shane. Shane, you mentioned your work with the G3ICT. I’m curious how does that work inform your opinion in how we go about making the business case for accessible XR? Do we need to flip the way we approach tech and accessibility from what we can't do to what we can do? 

Shane Kanady: Thank you, Liz. Many of us involved with research in the economic inclusion of persons with disabilities have tended to lean on this vicious cycle of stigma and discrimination, un- and underemployment, poverty and isolation. We also tend to focus on issues of regulatory compliance and social responsibility and other tactics that are generally based on fear for compelling someone to do the right thing. For several decades, the numbers on poverty, educational attainment, and employment have not shown significant improvement. People generally seem overwhelmed by the enormity of the problem. And although they recognize the problems exist, but they seem daunting and unsolvable. So instead, we should re-frame the problem space to focus on the virtuous cycle of recognized value and greater inclusion. Turning a negative into a positive is by no means a novel concept, but it's an approach that I know that I have tended to ignore in my work. This reframing can be applied to any situation. In this case, we are talking about the business case for accessible XR. As we described the cycle, the language should appeal to the audience we're trying to reach. From the business orientation, the virtuous cycle for accessible XR should start with the recognition that persons with disabilities are consumers of technology products and services. When technology is more accessible and useable, it appeals to the disability community, while simultaneously reaching a broader market. This recognized market value should drive investment to overcome the issues of accessibility and usability leading to increased demand across demographics, which drives profits and perpetuates the cycle. We can apply the same thinking to accessible XR and the expansion of remote work and telepresence. Here, we know the broader acceptance for new ways to engage with work is not in itself a game changer for persons with disabilities. This is because the issues of accessibility, affordability, connectivity, and usability of tech that existed well before the pandemic are still real barriers. But if the business community recognizes the inherent value that persons with disabilities represent to the workforce, this could drive investment to address the persisting issues. The increased investment will produce more inclusive technology, including XR which will enable more remote work and telepresence opportunities. The combination of more inclusive tech and reduces barriers will benefit persons with disabilities to increase employment and career advancement. At the same time, businesses benefit from greater diversity in the work force and new perspectives to drive innovation in their products and services. The combinations of those purposeful actions and resulting outcomes creates benefits to the economy and society. The virtuous cycle approach is action oriented. There is a relationship between practical action and tangible desired outcomes rather than a focus on preventing major societal problems. Taking this approach may prove to be more influential in the behavior of the audiences that we hope to influence. This is well in keeping with the spirit of the work we do at G3ICT. 

Liz Hyman: I love flipping the frame and having the more positive and inclusive way of thinking about this. Deb, you know, as a software engineer and evangelist for all things XR, I know you thought and written and advocated for the growth of immersive tech. I know, among other things, you've given a lot of focus and thought to enterprise use cases, like collaboration, communication, and training. Thinking a little bit about what Shane just talked about, with the more positive frame for how we move forward. I wanted to focus for a moment on these types of tools, the collaboration, communication and training tools and what you think can be done to encourage inclusion at the get-go of our XR digital revolution.

Deb Mayers: I think one of the things is, right now is a great time to be thinking about inclusion from the start. Accessibility is getting a lot more traction, whether it's from people with disabilities, advocacy groups, people realizing it is the right thing to do or even from lawsuits. People are becoming more aware about accessibility. It's a bigger topic now than it has ever been before. To encourage inclusion in XR, really what we need to do is have those standards and guidelines in place. Before we even start designing an XR experience, we need to have those expectations of what people need to do and think about to make an experience accessible. I think really, the best way to do this is hear from people with disabilities. I’m sure this point will be brought up multiple times during the XR Access symposium. We need to include people with disabilities throughout the entire software development life cycle. From the hardware side, making the headsets, the controllers, and to the software side with hand tracking, the assistive technologies inside the device and individual applications on top of that. We really need to hear from people with disabilities and make that part of the process. We need to do user testing and include people with disabilities in user testing, and we get to get them to develop it. We need accessible guidelines that say, when I develop something, I have a bunch of things I need to check the box on. Just making accessibility part of that is going to be really key. Of course, when we are thinking about testing and making sure we are doing manual testing with different assistive technology and then really getting that buy-in from senior leadership. If you are in a larger corporation, that buy-in from senior leadership is going to be key because that is one of those drivers that will help you fund and get the buy-in you need from your teammates and members as well. Not only do we need to start from the grassroots and have each person in the individual roles know what to do to be accessible, but we need to have the senior buy-in.

Liz Hyman: Those are great points and, George, I think they probably resonate with you and the world you come from and as you mentioned, Strivr is one of the leading enterprise solution providers for immersive learning and job training, and at the beginning of this, I referenced the McKinsey study about the acceleration of digitalization due to Covid, and I guess what I am curious is what you're seeing in your space, with training and the immersive learning space and how we are doing in terms of baking in some of the accessibility features from the get-go? 

George Karalis: I think the industry is in a different place than it was a few years ago. There is enough evidence now that XR tech, especially for learning and development can have a huge ROI for organizations. I definitely think we're at the right point to be baking accessibility into the technology. More organizations are passing the point of running a pilot or doing an innovation project and actually now are looking to build XR infrastructure that will scale across their organization and have big impact on work force development and actually meeting business objectives with the technology. Covid might have accelerated that, but I think it was already a trend that was happening. So with that in mind, accessibility is critical. If you are an organization looking for workforce transformation, you have to think about employees with disabilities. And if you're implementing accessible XR solutions, It means you can capture that over the entire workforce and you don't have to build different technical solutions for different groups of employees. But really most important, If you don't have accessible XR solutions, you are excluding disabilities and an already disadvantaged group from the tools that make them most successful on the job. Because XR tech is scaling up and it's happening now, it is the right time for XR providers to build that technology in. Also for the buyers of XR to push the providers too. 

Liz Hyman: Terrific points. That is a good segue into another area that I want to explore. You made this comment when we were preparing for the panel. It made me really give some thought to this. You suggested we should think about not just the responsibilities of the developers and technologists to figure out what accessibility should look like in XR, but the responsibility of the customer. I guess, George, to follow-up, are customers doing a good job of setting expectations that accessibility is necessary, so it pumps the rest of the value chain here? If not, how do you think we need to go about showing them the value lost if we don't make it accessible? 

George Karalis: In my experience at Strivr, talking to the fortune 500 companies, I’m hearing more customers ask about the accessibility of our platform and product. I find that encouraging. I think it goes back to the fact that this technology is at a point now where it is scaling and becoming part of the IT Infrastructure of large organizations. We have a ton of work to do to figure out make the technology accessible. Because it is scaling, I think it is the right time for organizations to start setting the same expectations around accessibility that they would for other types of IT Infrastructure they want to deploy across their whole organization. For any XR customers listening, whether you're sourcing hardware or software, definitely ask your providers and vendors what is they are doing with accessibility and the actions they're taking. And the last point on this topic, the solution is not falling back to 2D screen. Because I think the reason we're here and the reason we're excited about XR technology is because it's a fundamentally new and differentiated medium that can do things that no other medium can. It's our responsibility to make sure everybody has access to the new opportunities. I think we can all agree that we are all believers in this becoming the next computing platform. It is not just nice to have, it is going to be a must-have. 

Liz Hyman: I like that you are calling that out. Deb, are there enough tools and guides and materials out there to help developers and help others realize their responsibility for accessible XR? What might be missing? 

Deb Mayers: Frankly, no. I think we are starting to get there. I mean, I know Oculus has those nine virtual reality checks. All nine of those for accessibility are as nice to have and not required. Of course, the XR Association does have the developer checklist which you know all about. We have the W3C who is creating things, but still, fundamentally, one of the things that I've been working on recently has been webXR, and you'd think, well, we have the WCAG, we have all these standards in place for webXR. But at its fundamentals, 3D models don't have an alt text. So that's not going to work with a screen reader or, someone who's a screen reader user will not know what is inside of that 3D scene. We need to start working from that side as well, just getting that semantic HTML, or getting the semantics inside of Unity, Unreal, and be able to actually think about, how is this going to interact with different tools? I think really just getting those checklists, and trying to figure out, okay, we really need the semantic HTML for webXR. What can we do, what needs to be the next step, and then when you give it to developers, say okay, we have the semantic HTML, here is what you need to do and here is what designers need to do and here is what testers need to do. Getting everyone to be able to know these are the rules and making it part of the software development lifecycle instead of an add-on like what we have now. I will say in reference to our guidelines, we always said this is a living and breathing document. It starts and we need to keep improving and adding on to it as we go along. Whether it is the XR Association or the Oculus checklist, the W3C, all of the groups you talked about. I’m encouraged that there is a real momentum to keep that conversation moving forward. 

Liz Hyman: You are right. We need everybody pitching in for sure. Shane, I wanted to continue on the theme of shared responsibility. Talk a little bit about telework tools more specifically. How accessible -- how do we connect people of all abilities to see their commonalities and move the accessibility dialogue forward so it benefits us all? 

Shane Kanady: I would like to build on the great comments that Deb and George have both made about the leadership and organizations, and individually. It is about leadership. Along with G3ICT, there are many other notable groups that have done great work to demonstrate the broad societal value of accessibility in the generalized sense. There are tool kits and success stories and research available on the topic. But in my experience, the stumbling block continues to be the broad recognition of value embodied in the disability community. There is so much perception of difference and dwelling on difference in the negative sense rather than the positive sense of diversity and innovation and some of the virtues that come along with perceived or real differences. So we have an opportunity. We have an opportunity to advance these years of advocacy and the creation of the landmark federal and international policy models around the inclusion of persons with disabilities. We have the experience of the past year with the pandemic which, in many cases, have shown us just how similar we are as people. Going through the shared experience and all of the concerns we all had for just basic human needs over the past year. So, circling back to the theme of responsibility, there is leadership required within the industry to help advance those conversations, to build on the work that has been done and not to allow us to retrench or regress or view persons with disabilities as an afterthought with the conception of these technologies and how they are designed and how they are deployed and who benefits from them. And telepresence, telework is a microcosm of that. It is a tangible way to anchor to this topic, because employment is a predictor of other benefits that someone might experience in their life. We can focus there, we can focus the case studies and technologies that were linked to that. But it should be in the service of the broader societal conversation of what that really means by having persons with disabilities in the thought process, included in the conversations, and leadership demonstrated by the industry to make sure that happens. 

Liz Hyman: So, just speaking a little bit more about the ecosystem here. There was something, George, that you mentioned that we are moving past the point of pilots and that we're getting into full blown solutions. Clearly there's demand for that, right? I feel like we're at a different inflection point. If you think how things might have played out, for example, with mobile technology and accessibility, there was a lot to learn in that conversation from beginning to end. In this instance it feels like we've flipped it a little bit, there is broad recognition that accessibility and inclusivity has to be at the beginning of the conversation. Not at end. I’m curious when you commented about getting past the pilot stage. Is there something you are seeing there that reinforces what I just said? That we're a bit of a flipped paradigm? 

George Karalis: I think it comes back to what it takes to deploy any kind of technology across the large organization and make it part of IT infrastructure. When we work with large organizations like Walmart or Fedex or Verizon, we have to go through these huge compliance reviews. Any software company, or tech company could have to go through those types of reviews. It is a little bit different when we're talking about a new technology like XR. But even if it is a new technology, if it's going to scale across the entire organization, there are requirements that need to be met. You may need to meet them in a different way than we meet them for traditional media. But organizations are already are thinking about that because it is part of the existing compliance processes they have. And they are thinking about their employees with disabilities. 

Liz Hyman: I’m curious, Shane. That's a great explanation of how larger corporations function. When you get into smaller businesses, they may not have the same compliance mechanisms or they might, I don't know. In your experience, is there a different conversation with smaller organizations and what they need to bring to the conversation? 

Shane Kanady: Yeah, that's an interesting question because there are different scales of economic pressures that you would be facing. A large organization with a lot of operating capital and a lot of presence throughout the world. They feel economic fluctuations differently than a small business in your local town. The small business in the local town may not be predisposed to the conversation around accessibility. What does it mean to make our products and services, our store accessible, our web presence accessible? Those sorts of things. I think it becomes part of the demonstration of new normal behaviors through the business community, through societal expectations. That models that out. You know, small business owner could see they are actually foregoing a lot by not thinking about those things. But they have to be exposed to it and I think you have to meet people where they are in the conversations, too. For them at the end of the day, it is like what do I do to keep my lights on in the midst of the recession. I know I have regulatory compliance things I have to consider just by virtue of my built environment or other things. What does that mean in terms of driving that for my business? Help me understand that. I think it is more bringing that conversation to their level of readiness to engage on it. 

Liz Hyman: Yeah, and I think that views the conversation we have had with the XR Access Initiative and particularly around the conversation of business cases and how we make this attractive no matter what the size or audience might be. Deb, I’ll give you the last pitch down the middle. Thinking about the XR Access Initiative and the business case work stream. Having listened to this conversation, how do you hoping this conversation is going to go? What are we drawing from today that is going to be a necessity that we work on? 

Deb Mayers: I really hope what we can do in the future for the business case is really how can i, as an individual, and individual developer at x company drive this sort of inclusion and how can I get buy-in leadership? How much money will it save me? What case do I need to put together and what Shane was saying with the economics. I don't understand all of that because I’m not a math person. Just being able to put all of that together so that way someone from any company can say it is all packaged for me. I have what I need to pitch. I have everything I need. Let's go ahead and go forward with it. 

Liz Hyman: If that's not a call to action for the XR access community, then I don't know what is. I want to encourage people to get involved with work stream and contribute to that conversation. We have a lot of work to do, for sure. A lot of progress, but a lot of work to do. I think we are ready to take questions from the audience and we're really grateful for the time today. 

Jessie Taft: Thank you so much, Liz, Shane, George and Deb. As a reminder, you can post questions in the topic business channel. I’m going to send up the first question to deb. It sounds like you may have personal experience within this area. It would be great to hear from others on this as well. Deb, you mentioned the importance of getting buy- in from senior leadership from making technology accessible. Can you talk more about what those getting buy-in conversations have looked like for you and can you offer us tips on how to make the conversations successful? 

Deb Mayers: Yes. I have been doing XR work and enterprises for the past three years. Almost every conversation I had has been really figuring out, number one, how much will it cost. Number two, why are we going to do this or is there a big driver? Then the third is just trying to pitch to the ethos of people. Make sure we know who our users are and why they need it and why it is important. I really think that's always been kind of difficult to pitch. Trying to figure out how can we balance the accessibility with the other priorities we have.

Liz Hyman: I want to jump in. In some of our conversations in the business cases work stream, we have been talking about the cost of not making a product accessible. We talked a little bit. There is analogies, for example, IBM and their research group did a pretty exhaustive study of what is the cost of bugs that are not fixed? In some ways, if we could adapt that conversation to talk about the lack of inclusive and accessible features, that would be a compelling argument and others that they are leaving money on the table by not pursuing inclusive and accessible products. 

Jessie Taft: Thank you, Liz. Our next question comes from Scott. I’ll send this to Liz. You said cognitive accessibility continues to be under emphasized when compared to sensory accessibility. How can businesses and developers and others increase the focus on cognitive accessibility of XR and workplace technology? 

Liz Hyman: Thank you, Scott. A great question. I want to refer people back to the XR Association's developers guide. It was mentioned in the previous panel. It is a set of guidelines of best practices for developers. We very specifically call out several different concepts and ideas to address cognitive disabilities. I think part of this is making sure that at every instance when we're talking about how to make products more accessible, we are talking about the panel of users and what their needs and interests are. That's one place to start. I also think that some of the work experience and that's what really trying to focus on most recently is what's been the work paradigm and how does XR fit into that and when we think of people with cognitive disabilities, the fact that you can have like an in-assistance, to help a worker who's otherwise profoundly capable of doing the job but may need like one little piece of an overlay and augmented reality only mixed reality or realtime assist to make that job even better, I think those are the opportunities and possibilities that we're seeing. But maybe some of our other panelists would like to add into that? 

George Karalis: Yeah, I can jump down on that one too. Sorry, go ahead, Shane. 

Shane Kanady: Oh, thank you, George. Yeah, this is Shane. One thing I just wanted to relate from that general point, right, it's about context and people understanding where the technology world is and where companies are in their conception of who is in the disability community. And what that means. And a lot of exposure over time has been to people with, you know, physical impacts and disabilities, people who experience blindness or low vision. People who may be deaf or hard of hearing. Cognitive disabilities, the complexity of that, is inherently more challenging because there has been less focus on it to start to parse out how do we actually create technology interventions that make a significant difference. And I guess the argument would be as you're looking at use cases and you're looking at user groups, those who experienced the greatest barriers to inclusion, which arguably would be persons with intellectual and developmental disabilities in the united states, if you're looking at a domestic context, if you focus on technology that starts to address those barriers, I would argue that you would accelerate the advancement of all of these benefits for everyone more significantly. Because you're focusing on those who experienced the greatest barriers inherently. 

George Karalis: Yeah, thank you, I was going to hop on to what Liz was saying in terms of employee work force development. It's hard to know whether somebody who isn't successful on the job wasn't because they couldn't do the job or wasn't because they weren't properly trained and got the support they need. That's an exciting opportunity with XR. The training can be important with how you learn. If somebody can't learn in the same way with a manual as they can in a virtual environment that's actually simulating the on-the-job experienced and with augmented mixed reality, you can provide support on the job, which is really exciting. In addition to making technology accessible so people with disabilities have the same level of access as somebody without, providing brand new opportunities to support people is something that's very exciting too.
Deb Mayers: I wanted to add one more thing. I really think doing the user research will be very helpful in that aspect because we don't really know what users need or what will help users or just what sort of things, and I think that's really going to be a big driver of that as well. 

Jessie Taft: Great. Thank you. So this next question comes from bill on slack and I’m going to send it to Shane first, but I would love to hear from all of you if you have comments. For companies building XR technologies, what resources could the XR Access Initiative create that would help you grow internal interest and implement inclusive design in your product? 

Shane Kanady: It's a great question. This is Shane. I think it starts from really giving a landscape, sort of a testament of who are the decision makers, the critical decision makers in that process, and what is kind of most compelling for them in terms of how they would act, how they would respond to information, and we could create through XR access, we could create volumes and volumes of what we would believe to be very useful pieces of information to help guide people's behaviors, but it starts with engaging with them up front to find out what they need. Right? What are the economic examples that we need to demonstrate, what are the very sort of implementable, practical things that they could do as a starting point that have an amplified impact, right. As they go through and actually put them into practice. But with anything, I think you need to start with talking to the audience to understand what exactly they need or at least what they think that they need. In order to help in that process. 

Deb Mayers: Thanks. One of the things I would love to see out of XR Access would really be real life experiences of people with disabilities to say, hey, here's how I use my quest and here are the issues I’m facing and this is why it's really important to have. 

Liz Hyman: And I was just going to add, I had the privilege of leading the business case work stream for XR Access Initiative, and one of the things that we are focused on and I may end up repeating myself tomorrow, but we want to try and really focus in on a very hyper specific use case where we can bring in what deb and Shane were just talking about. We want something that's sort of real life, realtime, that is on a time line where we can learn a little bit more about what are those drivers, how do we create resources that will address that. So all of this to say, it's a bit of an advertisement for joining the bcXR work stream. We need all the brain power and imagination, and expertise we can get in that discussion. 

Jessie Taft: All right. So we have time for one more quick question. I’ll send this one to Liz first, but would love to get other opinions. What kind of -- or can you talk more about the kind of competitive advantage that goes to the first company to nail accessible social XR. 

Liz Hyman: it's a great question, and, you know, I’m really proud to represent an organization, the XR access, excuse me, the XR association, we're combining those today, which has fabulous companies, manufacturers and technology platforms and I think all of them have embraced the notion that inclusive design and accessibility is important, and is that competitive advantage, and I think that drives their desire to build the accessibility guide, and to be front and center. Starting to see some very exciting prototypes that are coming out. Really the developers community because they do perceive that competitive advantage, but let me share that question with others on the panel. 

George Karalis: I can hop in here. This is George, I was talking before about how XR is scaling and becoming a key part of the business, and it's really transforming work forces and companies. And the first and most able platform out there, products out there that are able to reach the most employees are going to be the most competitive because companies, busies are evaluating different technologies and if one of them is successful, and another is not, it makes that choice a lot easier and so I think the first platforms, the first products, the first service providers that are able to be accessible and reach the broadest audiences are going to be successful. 

Shane Kanady: This is Shane, I would just add on that, being at the leading edge or the bleeding edge of new technology, that's inherently kind of scary territory sometimes because you are breaking new ground, and you are learning by failing, and going through that process, but if you are as a company intentionally setting forward to crack the code, as the kind of framing the question and to be the first mover and really making significant advances there, there is certainly the business benefit that comes with that, but it's also in this larger sort of shared community of knowledge and helping to take positive steps forward on inclusion for everyone. Through that, so there's a broader contribution, and I know I come to this in a lot of ways from a very nonprofit sort of orientation, but I look at what is the broader value of what's being created even through mistakes. You have learned something that you can share that knowledge with other people and they can continue to advance on those ideas, and I think there's so many examples of where that has happened in history that this is just the next wave of that technological innovation that could really unlock opportunities for people if we do so in a very purposeful way.

Jessie Taft: Wonderful. So that is all the time that we have for questions. And now we're going to move into a 30-minute break. We'll return at 1:40 with a panel on research and accessible XR.